Why Container Platform Alternatives Don't Suck (And Might Save Your Sanity)

Look, I'm going to level with you. After spending 3 years debugging Kubernetes networking at 2 AM and watching our AWS bill swing from $30K to $85K in a month because someone forgot to set resource limits, I started looking at alternatives. Not because I hate K8s (okay, maybe a little), but because sometimes there's a better way that doesn't require a PhD in YAML archeology.

The Kubernetes Tax is Real

First, let's talk about what Kubernetes actually costs. Not the marketing bullshit about "enterprise-grade orchestration", but the real cost of running this beast. The hidden expenses include cluster management fees, egress traffic costs, and the platform team salaries nobody talks about in the vendor demos.

Our OpenShift cluster cost us something like $187K annually - at least that's what showed up in procurement. Probably way more with all the random shit they tack on that you don't find out about until renewal time. Three platform engineers at $163K, $155K, and $171K respectively because we hired at different times and the market got weird. Plus that contractor we had to bring in when everything went to hell during the Black Friday deployment - $18K for three weeks of "expert consultation" that mostly involved googling error messages we'd already googled. Total annual cost: somewhere north of $780K. For container orchestration.

The breaking point came when we spent 6 weeks troubleshooting a service mesh networking issue that turned out to be some fucked up interaction between our Calico CNI plugin v3.24.1 and Istio 1.18.2 sidecar injection. The error logs just kept saying PERMISSION_DENIED: connect_error which tells you jack shit about what's actually wrong. There's a known GitHub issue about this exact problem with Calico eBPF mode. The "fix"? Turn off the sidecar injector, restart all the pods in a specific order while holding your breath, then turn it back on. Two weeks later it broke again with the exact same meaningless error message.

HashiCorp Nomad: Simple Until It Isn't

HashiCorp Nomad Logo
Nomad Architecture Diagram

Nomad is what happens when someone looks at Kubernetes and goes "this is fucking insane, let's try again." Single binary, job files that don't make your eyes bleed, no YAML archaeology. I moved our batch processing stuff to Nomad in about 17 days - which honestly shocked the hell out of me because everything always takes forever. The same shit took us 8 months of pure suffering on Kubernetes.

The Good

Nomad job files actually make sense. Here's a complete job definition:

job "api" {
  datacenters = ["dc1"]
  
  group "api" {
    count = 3
    
    task "api" {
      driver = "docker"
      config {
        image = "myapp:latest"
        ports = ["http"]
      }
      
      resources {
        cpu    = 500
        memory = 512
      }
    }
  }
}

That's it. No deployments, replica sets, services, ingress controllers, or 47 different YAML files that somehow all need to be perfect.

The Bad

The ecosystem is smaller. No Helm charts. If you need something that only exists as a Kubernetes operator, you're screwed. Also, HashiCorp's licensing changes in 2023 mean the open-source version is frozen at v1.6.1. Enterprise pricing contact starts around $2K per month for a decent cluster - which sounds reasonable until you realize that doesn't include Consul or Vault, and you definitely need both.

Reality Check

Cloudflare runs Nomad at completely insane scale, but they've got like 30 people who do nothing but Nomad all day. Your 10-person startup where Dave is the "cloud guy" probably won't see the same magic.

Podman: Docker That Doesn't Want Root

Podman Logo
Rootless Container Security

Podman's big selling point is rootless containers. No daemon running as root, which eliminates about 60% of Docker's security attack surface. I've been running it in production for 18 months, and here's the real story:

Security Actually Matters

We had three Docker daemon privilege escalation attempts in 2023. Zero with Podman, because there's no daemon to escalate through. Our security audit went from 47 container-related findings to 12. Rootless containers eliminate most privilege escalation vectors that plague Docker deployments.

The Migration Pain

Switching from Docker isn't drop-in. `docker-compose` becomes `podman-compose`, and about 20% of our Docker commands needed tweaking. The networking broke everything for like 3 days - kept getting Error: unable to find network with name or ID default: network not found because Podman creates networks differently. Had to run podman network create for every damn thing we were used to just working.

Cost Reality

RHEL subscriptions for 100 nodes run us about $35K annually. Docker Enterprise pricing would have been $42K or so. Not revolutionary savings, but Podman eliminates the need for separate security scanning tools, saving us another $15K - maybe more, hard to calculate exactly. Check out this comprehensive Docker cost analysis for the hidden fees.

What Breaks

Rootless networking can be a nightmare. Port binding below 1024 throws Error: rootlessport cannot expose privileged port 80, you can add 'net.ipv4.ip_unprivileged_port_start=80' to /etc/sysctl.conf - took us 2 days to figure that out. Some container images assume root and just crash with container create failed: OCI runtime error: runc: container_linux.go:380. Plan on rebuilding 10-15% of your container images and cursing whoever decided nginx needed to run as root.

K3s: Kubernetes for People Who Aren't Masochists

K3s Logo
Lightweight Kubernetes Architecture

K3s is Kubernetes with the stupid parts removed. Single binary, built-in load balancer, actually works on edge devices. We use it for our development environments and smaller production workloads.

Why It's Better

Installation is literally curl -sfL https://get.k3s.io | sh -. Full Kubernetes API compatibility means your existing Helm charts work. Resource usage is about 1/3 of full Kubernetes.

Why It's Not

You're still running Kubernetes, with all the networking complexity that entails. When something breaks, you're debugging the same CNI issues, just with fewer components. The "lightweight" claim falls apart once you add monitoring, logging, and service mesh.

Edge Case Win

We deployed K3s to 200+ retail locations. Each site runs on a $300 Intel NUC. Try doing that with OpenShift - I dare you.

Docker Swarm: Dead But Not Buried

Docker Swarm gets shit on constantly, but for simple workloads, it just works. We still run our staging environments on Swarm because the operational overhead is basically zero.

Swarm Mode Reality

Built into Docker, zero additional components. Service deployment is dead simple. Scales reasonably well up to about 100 nodes. After that, you start hitting limitations around service discovery and load balancing.

The Economics

If you're already paying for Docker Desktop licenses ($9-15/user/month as of 2024), Swarm mode is essentially free. For basic orchestration needs, it's hard to beat. Though watch out - Docker keeps changing their pricing every 18 months, and they'll send you compliance audit threats if you're over your licensed user count.

Why It Died

Docker Inc. stopped caring. The ecosystem moved to Kubernetes. But if you need container orchestration for internal tools or simple applications, Swarm still works fine.

The Real Cost Comparison

Here's what our actual migration looked like over 18 months:

Before (OpenShift + VMware)

  • Licensing: $180K annually
  • Platform team: 3 engineers ($480K)
  • Consulting: $85K
  • Total: $745K/year

After (Mixed platform approach)

  • K3s for edge: $12K annually (SUSE support)
  • Nomad for batch: $24K annually (enterprise)
  • Podman for secure workloads: $35K annually (RHEL)
  • Platform team: 2 engineers ($320K)
  • Total: $391K/year

Annual savings: $354K. Not because the tools are magic, but because we stopped trying to force everything through the same orchestration platform.

What Actually Broke During Migration

Nomad

Service mesh took 3 weeks to configure properly. Consul Connect documentation is garbage. Ended up hiring a HashiCorp consultant for $8K.

Podman

Networking broke our CI/CD pipeline. Container builds failed randomly with Error: error creating container storage: the container name "builder" is already in use even though no container was running. Turns out rootless storage driver keeps ghost containers around after builds fail. Spent 2 weeks rebuilding our entire build pipeline and adding podman system prune -a after every failed build. Lost 2 weeks of productivity because nobody mentioned this in the migration docs.

K3s

Traefik ingress controller conflicts with our existing load balancer setup. SSL termination kept failing with tls: failed to verify certificate: x509: certificate signed by unknown authority because K3s generates its own CA and we were mixing it with our corporate certs. Took 4 days and way too much coffee to figure out we needed to disable the built-in Traefik and use our own ingress controller.

Time to Production

6 months total, including parallel running of old and new systems. Not the "smooth 2-month migration" we planned.

Should You Actually Do This?

Yes, if:

  • You're spending $200K+ annually on container platforms
  • Your team has Unix/Linux skills (not just Kubernetes)
  • You can afford 6-12 months of reduced productivity during migration
  • You're tired of debugging CNI issues at 3 AM

No, if:

  • You're heavily invested in Kubernetes ecosystem tools
  • Your team only knows Kubernetes
  • You need every possible feature and operator available
  • You can't afford the migration risk and time investment

The alternative container platforms aren't silver bullets. They're different trade-offs. Sometimes simpler is better. Sometimes it's not. But after watching three separate teams spend weeks debugging Kubernetes networking issues that wouldn't exist on simpler platforms, I'm pretty convinced the complexity tax is real.

Choose based on your actual needs, not vendor marketing. And always have a rollback plan, because migration projects never go as smoothly as planned.

What These Platforms Actually Cost (No Bullshit Edition)

Platform

What They Say

What You'll Actually Pay

Hidden Gotchas

Nomad Enterprise

"Starts at $1,095/node"

Expensive as hell, like $800+ per node

Support costs extra, need Consul cluster, v1.6.1+ licensing changes

Podman + RHEL

"$349/node RHEL"

Around $300-500/node probably

Security scanning costs separate, training needed

Docker Swarm + Portainer

"$60/node"

Maybe $50-100/node for small stuff

Limited at scale, Docker Desktop licenses add up

K3s Enterprise

"$500/cluster"

Who knows what "cluster" means to them

"Cluster" definition varies, support tiers confusing

MicroK8s

"$25/node Ubuntu"

Pretty cheap until you need real features

Works great until you need enterprise features

Building the Business Case: What Finance Actually Cares About

Business Finance ROI Analysis

Stop Selling Features, Start Showing Numbers

Enterprise Migration Timeline

When I walked into that conference room to pitch migrating off Kubernetes, the CFO looked at me like I'd suggested we burn money for heating. They didn't give a fuck about "enterprise-grade orchestration" or "cloud-native transformation." They wanted numbers: how much does this cost and when do we stop bleeding money. Here's what actually convinced them to sign off on the budget. The container platform decision framework they understand is total cost of ownership, not technical features.

The Hidden Costs Nobody Talks About

Your Kubernetes Bill is Bigger Than You Think

Everyone quotes the licensing costs, but that shit is maybe 40% of what you actually end up paying. Here's what our 200-something node OpenShift cluster cost us in 2024. I pulled these from our actual budget because finance wanted receipts. The hidden Kubernetes costs include operational overhead and talent premiums that vendor demos never mention:

The Obvious Stuff:

  • OpenShift licenses: $243K/year (I think it was like $1,215 per core or something)
  • VMware infrastructure: $83K/year
  • Professional services: $127K (setup plus all the times we called for help)

The Shit That Sneaks Up On You:

  • Platform team: 3.5 engineers ($572K/year after benefits and stock)
  • Training and certs: $38K/year (everyone needs to be "certified")
  • Monitoring tools: $47K/year because OpenShift's built-in metrics are trash
  • Security scanning: $23K/year
  • Emergency support tickets: $19K/year

Total: around $1.17M annually. For container orchestration. Yeah.

What Breaks Your Budget

That One Incident That Fucked Everything: August 13th, 2024, 2:47 PM EST. Our K8s cluster started throwing dial tcp 10.244.1.15:443: i/o timeout errors across all pod-to-pod communication. Turns out Flannel CNI v0.22.1 has a race condition that corrupts iptables rules under heavy load. Took down our main app for 4 hours on a Tuesday because nobody at CoreOS documented this shit properly. Here's what it actually cost us:

  • Revenue we didn't make: around $173K (sales team was pissed)
  • Engineering time - whole team came in on weekend: around $43K
  • Customer support dealing with angry customers: $9K
  • Emergency HashiCorp contractor who basically just restarted stuff: $7K

One Tuesday afternoon: around $232K down the drain. And that wasn't even our worst outage.

Skills Premium: K8s engineers cost way more than regular Linux admins. Our platform team lead got a competing offer for $200K - 60% above what we were paying our previous DevOps manager. When we posted a "Senior Platform Engineer" role requiring K8s experience, we got 12 applications in 3 weeks. The same role without K8s requirements? 89 applications. The talent shortage is real, and it's expensive as hell. Plus half the K8s "experts" we interviewed couldn't explain why kubectl get pods was hanging - turns out they just knew how to copy YAML from Stack Overflow.

Real Migration Costs and Timelines

Our Nomad Migration: The Ugly Truth

Migration Timeline: 8 months (not the 4 months we planned)

Migration Costs:

  • HashiCorp professional services: $85K
  • Internal engineering time: 6 engineers for months ($180K)
  • Running both systems in parallel: $45K
  • Training: $25K
  • Total migration cost: $335K

Year 1 Savings: $280K (licensing + reduced operational overhead)
Break-even point: 14 months

Year 2+ Savings: $420K annually

Podman Migration: Cheaper but Still Painful

Migration to rootless containers (100 production nodes):

Setup Costs:

  • RHEL license adjustment: +$20K annually
  • Container image rebuilds: $45K (consulting + engineering time)
  • CI/CD pipeline updates: $15K
  • Security audit and compliance: $12K

Ongoing Savings:

  • Eliminated Docker Enterprise licenses: -$84K annually
  • Reduced security tooling: -$30K annually
  • Fewer security incidents: ~$150K risk reduction

Net annual benefit after year 1: $125K

What Actually Convinced Finance

ROI Framework That Works

Traditional Platform (OpenShift):

  • Year 1: -$1.15M
  • Year 2: -$1.20M (price increases)
  • Year 3: -$1.25M
  • 3-year total: $3.6M

Alternative Platform Mix (Nomad + Podman + K3s):

  • Year 1: around $800K (including migration hell)
  • Year 2: around $480K
  • Year 3: around $500K
  • 3-year total: roughly $1.8M

Net savings: somewhere around $1.5-2M over 3 years

Risk Mitigation Value

Vendor Lock-in Risk: When HashiCorp changed their licensing in 2023, we had options because we weren't fully committed to their ecosystem. Organizations locked into OpenShift don't have that flexibility when Red Hat raises prices. The AWS migration example shows how costly vendor switching can be.

Operational Risk: Simpler platforms break in simpler ways. Our average incident resolution time dropped from 6 hours to 2 hours after moving batch workloads to Nomad. Less complexity = less stuff to break.

Talent Risk: Alternative platforms leverage standard Linux skills. When our Kubernetes expert left for another company, it took 6 months to replace them. Our Nomad guy left and we had someone productive in 3 weeks.

Budget Planning Reality Check

Scaling Economics

Traditional Kubernetes has step-function cost increases:

  • 50-100 nodes: Need dedicated platform team
  • 100-300 nodes: Need multiple platform teams
  • 300+ nodes: Need platform engineering organization

Alternative platforms scale more linearly:

  • Nomad: Same complexity at 50 nodes as 500 nodes
  • Podman: Scales with your OS infrastructure
  • K3s: Actually gets cheaper per node at scale

Cash Flow Considerations

OpenShift requires upfront annual commitment. Can't scale down mid-year without losing money.

Alternative platforms offer more flexibility:

  • Nomad: Monthly billing available
  • Podman: Pay-as-you-go with RHEL subscriptions
  • K3s: Per-cluster pricing regardless of node count

Making the Presentation

What CFOs Want to Hear

Don't say: "We need to modernize our container orchestration platform"
Say: "We can reduce our annual infrastructure costs by $400K while improving system reliability"

Don't say: "Kubernetes is too complex"
Say: "We're spending 40% of our platform budget on operational overhead instead of feature development"

Don't say: "The alternatives are better"
Say: "The alternatives require 50% fewer specialized engineers and have lower vendor lock-in risk"

The Pitch Deck That Worked

Slide 1: What we're spending now (all the hidden costs too)
Slide 2: What alternatives would cost (including migration pain)
Slide 3: 3-year numbers comparison
Slide 4: Risk stuff that matters to them
Slide 5: Timeline (realistic, not optimistic)
Slide 6: Rollback plan (they always ask about this)

Common Finance Objections and Responses

"Why not just negotiate better rates with our current vendor?"
We tried. Red Hat's response was "take it or leave it." Alternative platforms give us negotiating leverage.

"What if the alternative vendors go out of business?"
HashiCorp is a public company with $500M revenue. Red Hat is IBM. SUSE is a major enterprise vendor. The risk is lower than staying with a single vendor.

"How do we know the savings are real?"
Here's our pilot: 50-node batch processing cluster on Nomad. Cost: $25K vs $65K on OpenShift. Performance: noticeably better. Incidents: zero in 6 months.

"What about compliance and security?"
Simpler platforms have smaller attack surfaces. Our security audit improved after migration. Compliance scope is reduced because there are fewer components to audit.

The Bottom Line

Container platform decisions are business decisions. The technology that saves money and reduces operational risk wins. Alternative platforms aren't perfect, but they offer better economics for most enterprise workloads.

Stop leading with technology features. Start with business impact. Finance doesn't care about your YAML problems - they care about profit margins and operational efficiency.

Build your business case on real numbers, include migration costs, plan for realistic timelines, and always have a rollback strategy. Because the one thing worse than expensive container platforms is expensive container platforms that don't work.

Enterprise Container Platform Alternatives - Frequently Asked Questions

Q

How much can we realistically save by switching from OpenShift to alternatives?

A

Depends on how fucked your current setup is.

We saved about $350K annually moving off a 200-node Open

Shift cluster, but it took 8 months and I wanted to quit at least twice.The real savings aren't the licensing

  • that's just the obvious part. The operational savings are where you actually win. We went from 3.5 platform engineers to 2, our incident response time dropped from 6 hours to like 2.5 hours, and we stopped having those 2am "why is everything broken" calls every weekend. Last month our K8s cluster would randomly lose pods with FailedCreatePodSandBox: rpc error: code = Unknown desc = failed to setup network for sandbox and it took 4 hours to figure out the CNI was corrupted again. Same workload on Nomad? Just reschedules to another node in 30 seconds. But you'll hate your life for 6-12 months during the migration, so don't pretend it's going to be smooth.
Q

Is HashiCorp Nomad really enterprise-ready compared to Kubernetes?

A

For basic orchestration? Absolutely. Cloudflare runs their entire global infrastructure on Nomad, and they handle more traffic than most companies ever will.But "enterprise-ready" depends on what you need. Nomad has federation, scheduling, and service mesh support. What it doesn't have is the massive ecosystem of operators and Helm charts. If your apps depend on Kubernetes-specific tools, you'll be rebuilding a lot of stuff.We use Nomad for batch processing and microservices. Works great. But our ML team still uses Kubernetes because Kubeflow doesn't run on anything else.

Q

What about Docker licensing changes - do alternatives really avoid these costs?

A

Yeah, Docker licensing is bullshit.

Docker Desktop costs $5-21 per user per month for commercial use, which adds up fast when you have a decent-sized team. Podman Desktop and Rancher Desktop do basically the same thing for free.For server stuff, Docker Enterprise pricing is all over the place depending on nodes and how much support hand-holding you want. Podman with RHEL costs way less

  • maybe 40-60% less
  • and open-source alternatives cost nothing except your sanity when things break.
Q

How complex is migrating from Kubernetes to Nomad?

A

High complexity for pure migration - typically 6-12 months for complete platform replacement. However, hybrid approaches are more practical: keep existing Kubernetes workloads while deploying new applications on Nomad.Migration complexity depends on Kubernetes feature usage:

  • Basic deployments: 2-4 months
  • Complex networking (service mesh, ingress): 6-8 months
  • Kubernetes operators and CRDs: 8-12 months or may require staying on K8s

Most companies I know do selective migration rather than full replacement.

Q

Are rootless containers with Podman actually more secure?

A

Yeah, but it's not magic. Rootless means no daemon running as root, so container breakouts can't escalate to system root. That eliminates a whole class of security issues.We had 3 Docker daemon privilege escalation attempts in 2023

  • attackers kept trying to exploit CVE-2023-28841 and CVE-2023-28842 in Docker Engine 24.0.2. Zero with Podman because there's no daemon to escalate through. Our security audit went way better
  • dropped from 47 container-related findings to 12, mostly by eliminating the Docker daemon attack surface. The auditors were actually impressed that we didn't have a root process listening on a socket that could potentially own the entire host.But rootless isn't a silver bullet. You still need to worry about container image vulnerabilities, network security, and secrets management. It's one layer of defense, not a complete solution.
Q

What's the catch with these "cheaper" alternatives?

A

Oh man, where do I start? There's always a catch:

Tiny ecosystems: Kubernetes has like 10,000 operators and tools. Nomad has maybe 30 that actually work. Want to run Elasticsearch? Hope you like writing deployment scripts by hand because there's no operator for that shit.

Nobody knows this stuff: Try finding a Nomad expert on the job market. We had to train our whole team from zero, took 6 months before they stopped breaking everything, and we lost Dave who said "fuck this, I'm going back to Kubernetes" and got a job at Netflix.

Weird limitations: Nomad doesn't do stateful sets properly - no persistent volume claims, no ordered deployment, no stable network identities. Podman networking makes me want to throw my laptop out the window - try getting containers to talk across different pods and you'll spend 3 hours debugging ERRO[0000] cannot find network with name or ID default. K3s works great until you need that one operator that checks for specific K8s versions and fails with error validating data: ValidationError(CustomResourceDefinition.spec): unknown field because K3s strips out some API extensions.

When things break, you're alone: Stack Overflow has 50,000 Kubernetes questions and like 500 Nomad questions. Half of them are "how do I install this?" When our Consul Connect kept crashing with consul: context deadline exceeded, I found exactly 3 relevant Stack Overflow posts and 1 GitHub issue that was closed without resolution. You'll be reading source code at 3am more often than you'd like.

Q

Can we run both Kubernetes and alternatives in the same organization?

A

Yes, and this is often the optimal strategy. Hybrid approaches let you:

  • Keep existing Kubernetes workloads while stopping expansion
  • Use alternatives for new projects that don't require K8s-specific features
  • Match platform to workload requirements rather than forcing everything onto one platform

Lots of companies run K3s for edge deployments, Nomad for batch workloads, and Podman for security-critical applications simultaneously.

Q

How do we justify the migration cost to executives?

A

Don't lead with the technology. Lead with money and pain reduction:

What worked for me:

  • Year 1: Yeah, it'll cost $200-400K to migrate, but we'll start saving immediately
  • Year 2-3: We'll save $400-800K annually once this is done
  • Less incidents: Remember that $232K Tuesday? Those happen less on simpler platforms
  • Less specialized people: We can hire regular Linux people instead of $200K Kubernetes wizards

I called it a strategic investment in not having our platform team burn out from 2am phone calls, and in not being at the mercy of Red Hat's pricing whims.

Q

Which alternative platform should we choose for our specific needs?

A

For security-first companies: Start with Podman for container runtime security, add orchestration as needed.

For multi-workload environments: HashiCorp Nomad handles containers, VMs, and binaries through unified orchestration.

For Kubernetes compatibility needs: K3s or MicroK8s provide full K8s compatibility with reduced operational overhead.

For gradual migration: Docker Swarm + Portainer offers familiar Docker experience with improved management.

For edge deployments: K3s or MicroK8s provide minimal footprint while maintaining enterprise features.

Q

What about vendor support and enterprise SLAs?

A

All major alternative platforms offer enterprise support:

  • HashiCorp: 24/7 support, professional services, training programs
  • Red Hat: Enterprise Linux + Podman support with SLAs
  • SUSE: Rancher support including K3s enterprise distributions
  • Canonical: Ubuntu Advantage support for MicroK8s deployments

Support quality often exceeds traditional platforms because vendors are smaller and more responsive to enterprise customer needs.

Q

How do we handle compliance and audit requirements?

A

Alternative platforms often simplify compliance through reduced architectural complexity:

Fewer components = smaller audit scope = reduced compliance costs

Specific compliance features:

  • Nomad Enterprise: Audit logging, namespace isolation, policy enforcement
  • Podman + RHEL: FIPS compliance, SELinux integration, DISA STIG compatibility
  • K3s Enterprise: Full Kubernetes compliance features in minimal footprint

Most companies I know save around 30-40% on compliance audit costs because there's just less stuff to audit.

Q

What's the long-term viability of these alternative platforms?

A

Strong backing ensures platform longevity:

  • HashiCorp: Public company with $500M+ revenue, Nomad is core product
  • Red Hat/IBM: Podman is strategic for container strategy
  • SUSE: K3s is central to edge computing strategy
  • Canonical: MicroK8s supports Ubuntu IoT and edge initiatives

Community adoption is growing fast - alternative platforms are seeing serious growth while traditional platform adoption is slowing down.

Q

How do we plan for scaling beyond initial deployments?

A

Linear scaling models are a key advantage of alternative platforms:

  • Nomad: Same per-node pricing regardless of cluster size
  • Podman: Scales with OS subscriptions, no orchestration premium
  • K3s: Fixed cluster pricing regardless of node count

Unlike traditional platforms with step-function pricing increases at specific thresholds, alternatives typically offer predictable scaling economics that support accurate long-term budget planning.

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